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Brush the wandering hedgehog by the fire

Responding to [info]supergee's posting on Freudianism in the US in the 50s has reminded me that I meant to post this weekend about some ideas arising from the discussion of my Dorothy Hodgkin as a woman in science post of last week.

This is a thought, or set of thoughts, I've had sloshing around for some time (and which has made its way into some of my published or about-to-be published articles). It's about the way that change and development takes place in marginal and liminal spaces and mostly as a result of the activities of marginal and liminal people.

In terms of the history of science and medicine in the C20th, what we see is the emergence of new areas and disciplines, which didn't fit into accepted models (cf Hodgkin's problem of where crystallography could possibly 'fit' into the existing Oxford sciences set-up). They didn't provide safe 'jobs for the boys' so they tended to attract people who couldn't play the 'getting on in a solid career game', because they weren't, for reasons of gender, class, ethnicity, political views, educational history, or all of the above, going to be let anywhere near that playing field. This also applied to psychoanalysis and Freudian theory for several decades of the C20th. The fields themselves tended to be, at that point, fluid, and without rules and structures and not putting many constraints on who might get involved. The people who did, brought, among other things, a non-orthodoxy influenced (or, at least, less) perspective to what they are doing, as well as the talents which, because of the aforementioned exclusionary factors, weren't going to be let into the established academy and its institutions.

(My female pioneers of gastro-enterology would fit in here, with their jobs at unglamourous hospitals in the East End slums, their work on the routine diseases of childhood, their non-standard origins and career paths - one of them was Australian and had to work for several years as a lab technician to pay her way through medical school.)

Then these fields become more established and start setting rules and boundaries and terms of admission and also, quite often, rewriting their histories to produce a solid patriarchal genealogy, trying to un-inscribe their complex, fluid and unorthodox origins. This process doesn't however, usually allow for the inclusion as 'the right people to be doing this' of various marginalised groups... and may even be intended specifically or by implication to exclude them.

I think this model could also be extended to the arts. In the C19th the novel, for example, was being written by people who were not Oxbridge graduates with a classical education (these might, however, write poetry, criticism or essays), and there was no particular boundary between litfic and genrefic. But with the genre-fication of literature this has changed: see the gendering and hierarchification of various genres.

This also works for particular literary movements: it's been argued by various scholars, e.g. Ann Ardis and Jo-Ann Wallace, that by the 1920s modernism was busily trying to erase its early history in women's experimental writing of the late C19th-early C20th.

This possibly also relates to my belief that exciting work in the arts, which is also popular with and accessible to a wide audience, often tends to happen in non-respectable and liminal areas like the theatre in the Age of Shakepeare, or the novel in the Age of Jane Austen ('oh, it is only a novel'); and maybe film in the earlier C20th? I think there's some connection, something to do with lack of institutionalisation and imposed rules of who can and can't do things and hierarchies.

Conceding that my interest in margins and liminality may have something to do with my own position: archivists being per se pretty marginal creatures, and then me personally myself trying to have some kind of scholarly career [ETA: (in, moreover, a fairly marginal field of history)] outside the normal structures of the academy ('Don't you ever want to get a real academic job?') while also being one.

Comments

( 24 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]angeyja wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 05:46 am (UTC)
Here's a knee jerk question, wouldn't a number of artists fall more into a space that is oppositional rather than liminal?
[info]oursin wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 07:14 am (UTC)
Yes, I think this is the case, though - possibly? - post-Romanticism and the rise of the image of the artist as rebel? But in a sense that may itself be defined by what it's opposing - I'd cautiously hypothesise that something less boundary-drawing would be happening with the liminality cases.
[info]truepenny wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 06:00 am (UTC)
Fascinating. Thank you.

Because you make the comparison, and because this is the area I know something about, I'm now wondering if part of the reason sf (in all its myriad glory) is continuing to have such a beleaguered history with the mainstream (I posted about one manifestation of same a little while back) is that it has so resolutely embraced its marginal position. The subculture of sf fandom, because it is a culture, and because the line between pro and fan is often blurry to the point of indistinguishability, has had a certain amount of success in declaring the margin a center, if you follow me. So those in the mainstream who want to appropriate sf can only do so in the cases of individual authors who--as reviewers claim--"don't write science fiction," the genre itself being too autonomous, too little in need of validation from the mainstream, to play the game of conformity.

Does that make any sense or have any plausibility? Or is it too early in the morning here for me to be trying to think?
[info]supergee wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 06:36 am (UTC)
I've always flinched when hearing someone declare that sf is a Slannish literature that covers all possible times and places, and thus much better than cruelly limited mundane fiction, but I have to admit it's a survival trait for the field.
[info]oursin wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 07:21 am (UTC)
'It's more complicated'

I'm sure there are other models of this happening, of margins which become their own centre. Certain political groups, perhaps, and also certain religious/spiritual movements, and maybe some 'alternative' medical/healthcare practices might demonstrate some comparable traits.

Also, perhaps what I didn't quite get at, although it was implicit within my post, was the way in which margins/liminal spaces do themselves end up as mainstream institutionalised phenomena in their own right. I've just received, at last, a copy of the recent biography of early British Labour politician George Lansbury, who is probably doing flip-flops in his grave at what the Party has become under Blair.

But I think that's different from incorporating 'we are marginal' as part of the group identity.

Madly thinking.

[info]chickenfeet2003 wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 07:40 am (UTC)
Re: 'It's more complicated'
Oddly enough I was perusing the amazon.ca author page for a certain Dr. Hall and the Lansbury bio popped up in one of those 'people who' lists.
[info]chickenfeet2003 wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 07:56 am (UTC)
Labour Margins
One of the problems with the Labour Party is that it is very hard to stay on the margins. Labour's commitment to the Parliamentary Road tends to draw influential figures from the margin into the PLP where it is almost impossible not to be absorbed by the centre, more or less. At the very least, the aborbee gets that very distorted view of politics that one gets from inside Westminster. The list of people who have gone this way is impressive and starts with Ramsay Mac and Philip Snowden, progresses through the likes of Bevan to the more recent incorporation of many of my generation of leaders of the non Trotskyist left; Harry Barnes and John Trickett from the ILP, Mike Gapes and John Denham from Clause 4. It takes the bloody mindedness of an Eric Preston or a Pat McIntyre to stay outside the system. Its made particularly difficult by the fact that the party is deeply suspicious of any move by the extra-parliamentary left to organise within the party though apparently it is perfectly OK for the right to do so.

[info]chickenfeet2003 wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 08:04 am (UTC)
Re: Labour Margins
Add Alan Whitehead and Fiona MacTaggart to ex Clause 4 list.
[info]oursin wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 10:58 am (UTC)
Re: Labour Margins

the party is deeply suspicious of any move by the extra-parliamentary left to organise within the party
A tradition which goes back a long way.

I think this happens in other areas as well. Apart from the way in which outsiders become institutionalised and subsumed into the mainstream, especially if this seems to offer a degree of wider effectiveness, once something is seen as an effective career path (or at least offering some hopes of power, influence, income and sexual favours from persons of the desired sex), it's going to attract people who aren't joining from passionate belief but from some degree of opportunism.

Of course, in Ramsay M's case all you had to do was show him a duchess...

[info]chickenfeet2003 wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 11:12 am (UTC)
Re: Labour Margins
The opportunists have always been there of course. Oxbridge turns them out by the score. I still find it quite remarkable that there is a place in the PLP for the likes of Blair or Jenkins who never had any kind of base in the grass roots. Of course its not just the upper middle class carpet baggers, there are plenty of long serving activists who want a place at the trough. Gerry Steinberg would be a particularly apt example.

However, I am more interested in how people who do have roots outside Westminster get detached once they get sucked into the parliamentary maw. I think its a very insidious form of corruption. In some cases it doesn't even involve much of a compromise of personal principles but it does detach the MP from the grass roots. Take Denham as a case in point. He was principled enough to resign over Iraq but he's still not linked to the grass roots the way he was 20 years ago.
[info]exrat wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 06:14 am (UTC)
Don't you ever want to get a real academic job?

I'd rather eat a rat. Raw... and wrrrrrrrrrrriggling.

Bravo to the liminal!
[info]oursin wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 07:28 am (UTC)
I'm invariably asked this question after my colleagues in the Real Academic World have spent the last half-hour moaning about the Research Assessment Exercise, the bums-on-seats approach to teaching, and the amount of admin work that's demanded of them.
[info]exrat wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 11:04 am (UTC)
Uh-huh. And I bet some of 'em seem threatened when you smile and say "No, no academic job, thank you."

(The parallel with voluntary childlessness is left as an exercise for the reader.)

Linked this post on misbehaving.net, by the way.
[info]oursin wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 11:13 am (UTC)
misbehaving.net
That is so appropriate! Because Hodgkin was one of the first to recognise the potential of computing for the kind of work she was doing, and one of the first dedicated computer people working in her unit was the wife of one of her research fellows, who just happened to be looking for a job, turned out to be no good at the drawing they initially hired her for but a whiz with the primeval computer technology of the day.
[info]rahael wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 06:58 am (UTC)
Very interesting!

It certainly puts a new perspective on the old question - what kind of social climate best encourages great art?

Perhaps societies undergoing new tensions (that often come from the breaking up of old hierarchies) allow more avenues for the liminal (heh, I've long been talking about the 'Liminal' Slayer' to little response) to find new expression.

Like, the development of the novel. But I was also thinking of what great art the troubled times of the Civil war produced. Milton and Marvell - it was the Parliamentary side which seemed be most fruitful - not only in terms of 'art' proper, but in terms of men outside the traditional political nation speaking with such passion about ideas that might have once been thought to be the business of their 'betters'.

I actually first started thinking about this when I was much younger and read virtually nothing but Russian literature. Why did this society produce all this? And, actually, the very first place I ever encountered 'SF' and 'Fantasy' was here - Tolstoy, Lermentov and Dostoevsky. I certainly think their Gothic stories are important forbears.
[info]oursin wrote:
Dec. 23rd, 2003 05:30 am (UTC)
what kind of social climate best encourages great art?
This is one of the Big Questions (among so many) analysed by Rebecca West in Black Lamb and Grey Falcon: unfortunately I know that if I pick it up to find especially good Westian passages to quote I will get distracted by it, and with 2 huge volumes that's a lot of distraction, unfortunately, which in the current countdown to festivities that I ought not to have the time for. Art, the conditions for art, the artist and society are recurrent themes in West's work. (Must.... resist....)
[info]papersky wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 07:01 am (UTC)
That's very interesting.

You can see this in the careers of individual people of immense energy from the wrong background -- all of it, including the re-writing history and becoming more orthodox than the orthodox in success.

Cicero. Napoleon.

It might also be possible to make the liminality case for the Royal Society, at its beginnings, when science wasn't a university subject and they were a club, really, and lots of them very odd people.
[info]oursin wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 07:26 am (UTC)
It might also be possible to make the liminality case for the Royal Society, at its beginnings, when science wasn't a university subject and they were a club, really, and lots of them very odd people..
Yes, and even though women couldn't (I think) actually be members there was a lot of interaction between the Fellows and women who were interested in the New Experimental Philosophy, because it wasn't yet an Us with our University Degrees and Oxford College positions vs you who have not even had a basic classical education and do your experiments in your stillroom in between domestic demands. But just people who were very glad to find other people who were interested in the same things and didn't make jokes about them (cf Shadwell's The Virtuoso, in which these weird people form the main butt of his humour).
[info]jonquil wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 09:25 am (UTC)
Gah. I followed your link to the Chelsea Physic Garden. Now I want desperately to go, and I am on the wrong continent entirely.

From their Webpage:
Please note we are not licensed for civil wedding ceremonies

This fascinates me. In the U.S. you can get married any place you can drag an officiant to. People get married by the seashore, while skydiving, while SCUBA diving, and occasionally in churches. In the U.K. you have to choose an officially licensed location?
[info]oursin wrote:
Dec. 22nd, 2003 11:05 am (UTC)

It's only relatively recently that you could get married in the UK anywhere but a licensed place of worship or a register office. But these days you can get married most places - though I think it does have to be indoors, which may be why not the Chelsea Physic Garden. Probably a Health and Safety issue for registrars, given the British climate.

There's a play by J B Priestley, 'When we are married', which deals with what happens when a group of respectable middleclass northern couples find out that their marriages, which were all done in the same church by the same clergyman, may not be valid - either the church wasn't licensed or he wasn't the regular vicar, I forget. A very amusing play though.

[info]ex_ajhalluk585 wrote:
Dec. 23rd, 2003 03:35 am (UTC)
He wasn't qualified to perform marriages, although he was the Minister (Minister rather than vicar is important, because it was a Chapel wedding, all three couples being upstanding members of the Yorkshire Methodist community. This is an important plot point for the resolution, for reasons which will be obvious).
[info]oursin wrote:
Dec. 23rd, 2003 04:49 am (UTC)
Duh, yes, of course.
[info]ex_ajhalluk585 wrote:
Dec. 23rd, 2003 03:38 am (UTC)
I'm fascinated by the stuff you raise, especially since it ties in so closely with what I'm planning with the original novel sequence. It's going to take some time to get round to it, but Mrs Mumford is one of the pioneers of the activated sludge process, back in 1909 and I think that probably ties into your gastro-enterology papers (which, by the way, I'd love to read).
[info]oursin wrote:
Dec. 23rd, 2003 05:05 am (UTC)

My own gastro-enterology paper was a very short piece on women pioneers in the field, several of whom were grappling with those unglamourous things like summer diarrhoea of infants and the effects of malnutrition, or longterm life-style affecting disorders such as cystic fibrosis. It was a sort of amuse-bouche to a conference most of which was papers by practising paediatric gastro-enterologists and on rather more technical subjects such as intestinal mucosa, MMR, and so forth. (I made my excuses and left early, pleading work pressures.) There were some mutterings about publishing the proceedings but I have heard nothing of this since sending them the edited copy of my paper. If you'd be interested I can email it to you.

Activated sludge sounds like great fun: one of the women I wrote about in another paper on women and science in the early C20th, (Dame) Harriette Chick, seems to have started her career doing bacteriological analysis of water for the LCC, before moving on to the Lister Institute.

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